Are You a Good Person? Win a Dollar

I went to the Cache County Fair three weeks ago and saw an intriguing booth:

Are You a Good Person? a large banner asked. Win a dollar.

And never one to turn down a dollar–nor back away from a challenge–I marched straight over.

Come to find out, it was a proselytizing booth for Evangelical Christians. And they had a questionnaire for me to find out just how “good” I really am. Eagerly, I asked if I could take the questionnaire for my chance at glory.

A nervous, pimply teenager grabbed a clipboard and cleared his throat. “Have you ever loved anything more than God?” he asked.

I thought about it for a moment. “Ummm…probably,” I admitted.

“Have you ever worshipped an idol?”

“I–uh, I don’t think so.”

“Well, you probably have,” he said.

“Very possible,” I agreed.

“Have you ever taken the Lord’s name in vain?”


“Have you ever broken the Sabbath Day?”


“Have you ever dishonored your father or mother?”


“Have you ever murdered?”

I felt much better here. “No, I have never murdered,” I said proudly.

“But have you ever hated someone?”

“Well, actually,” I replied, “I really try not to hate–”

“Even for a second?” he grilled me.

“Well…yes,” I admitted.

“Then you’ve murdered them in your heart.”

“Oh,” I said. “Okay.”

“Have you ever committed adultery?”


“But have you ever lusted?”

I kind of smiled. “Absolutely,” I said.

“Then you’ve committed adultery in your heart,” he reminded me.

“Oh, yes, of course,” I replied.

“Have you ever stolen?”


“Have you ever lied?”


“Have you ever coveted?”

“All the time.”

He turned his questionnaire around to reveal the ten commandments–and by my own admission, I was guilty of ten out of ten of ’em.

“Does this look like a good person to you?” he asked.

I looked it over for a second.  “Not really,” I said.

“Then how do you think God will judge you?”

“Well,” I began slowly, “I think if I were to stand on my own merits, I would be damned.  But if I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, and rely on His grace and His merits instead of my own works–well, then, I believe I’m saved.”

He stared at me, dumbfounded.  “And–and HAVE you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior?”

“I have,” I replied confidently.

“And–are you MORMON?” he asked, his voice barely above a whisper.

“I am,” I replied confidently.

There was a pause while we just stared at each other.

“Betcha you never heard that one before, eh?” I asked.

“Not really,” he replied.

“So what do you think?” I asked.  “Can I be saved, even though I’m Mormon?”

Then he said something I never thought I’d hear an Evangelical say: “I don’t know,” he said. “Maybe.”

I smiled at him.  “You’re doing a wonderful thing,” I told him.  “Thank you.  And God bless.”

But my question remains: Is there hope for us Mormons yet?

About Katie L

A doubter by nature, a believer by grace.

Posted on September 3, 2008, in Mormonism, Thoughts on God and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 12 Comments.

  1. Wow… I would really like to dialog with you about this… I think I understand a little bit where that young “pimply teenager” was coming from… When you say “I think if I were to stand on my own merits, I would be damned. But if I’ve accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, and rely on His grace and His merits instead of my own works–well, then, I believe I’m saved.”

    I am in complete agreement with that statement. My question is WHO are Mormons referring to when they think of the person of Jesus Christ? Do they think of the spirit brother of Lucifer, who is also our spirit brother, 1 of many gods, that we can become equal to since we are all co-eternal intelligences with Jesus and God the Father?

    There is concern in the evangelical community that Mormonism teaches a different Jesus.

    Gordon Hinckley stated “No I don’t [believe in the traditional Christ]. The traditional Christ of whom they [non-LDS] speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the fullness of times.”

    “It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons. Christ followed by the Mormons is not the Christ followed by traditional Christianity.” (Bernard P. Brockbank, Elder, First Quorum of the Seventy, 147th LDS General Conference, Ensign, May 1977, page 26)

    “While respecting the divergent views of other people of faith, Church leaders want to be clear about the beliefs that help define Latter-day Saints. Among the most important differences with other Christian churches are those concerning the nature of God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.” (“Core Beliefs: Why and How Are Mormons Different”, Newsroom, website)

    I’ve heard Mormons say it is ridiculous to be so nit-picky and that it doesn’t really matter if we have the same concept of Jesus Christ. In contrast, Jesus proclaimed “If ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins” (John 8:24) and Paul warned us not to accept “another gospel” or “another Jesus” (II Cor. 11:4) who was not preached by the apostles.

    Who did the apostles say Jesus was in relation to Lucifer? (See Colossians 1:15-19) Who is Jesus as compared to us? (See John 8:23) Who is Jesus in relation to God the Father? (See John 14:9-11, 8:58, 10:30, I Tim. 3:16, Isaiah 9:6) These are the things that Mormons and evangelicals really need to be discussing…

  2. Jessica,

    Thanks for stopping by! It’s fun to see I have at least one reader! 🙂

    I have to say, I’m always a little wary entering into Mormon-Evangelical dialogues, simply because in my experience they tend to disintegrate into Bible-bashing and condemning diatribes–but I’ve been to your blog and you seem very sincere. The only “rule” I have, I guess, is that all sincere opinions be treated with openness, respect, and dignity. Earnest disagreements, expressed thoughtfully and kindly, are more than welcome.

    I readily acknowledge the differences of opinion between the Mormon and Evangelical communities regarding the nature of God. And, indeed, aside from the notion of salvation by works (which we both agree is a major fallacy), I imagine that this is THE largest divide between us. And you’re right. It’s a massively critical issue. So I would tend agree with you and DISagree with Mormons who say it is “ridiculous to be so nit-picky.” After all, wasn’t it Christ Himself who said that Life Eternal is to know Him and the Father? So what issue could be *more important* than the very nature of God, and our relationship to Him?

    Now, in regards to the scriptures you mention, I believe I understand where you’re coming from–and please correct me if I’m wrong. You’re concerned with language in some subsets of Mormon theology (understanding that Mormon doctrine is elusive and INCREDIBLY difficult to “pin down”) that seems to equate man and even Satan with God. That says, essentially, we are crafted of the same stuff. I can definitely appreciate how that would seem shocking and even blasphemous, and I’ll continue talking about this issue in a minute.

    But first, let me make a disclaimer. I know of no Mormon who would reject the scriptures you cite. Obviously, I can’t speak for ALL Mormons, but no one I know would argue that we are or ever could attain a level equal to Christ. He is ALWAYS our Lord, Master, and Redeemer, and we are forever at His mercy and completely reliant on His grace for our “eternal progression.” (Admittedly, another very Mormon concept.) But my point is that for every one of the scriptures you mention above, there is a rational Mormon response.

    Having said that, there are HUGE differences, and I wouldn’t want to downplay them. Among them, many Mormons believe that we are crafted of the same “stuff” as Deity–that our potential is to become “like Him” (whatever that means; I’ll be the first to admit to you I have NO IDEA)–or in other words, we are the same “species,” if you will, as God.

    So I’m curious what you see as the major implications of this teaching–and why you (or at least so many evangelicals) believe it precludes Mormons from salvation. I mean, my personal thought is that Christ is such a HUGE concept that no mortal could ever hope to even BEGIN to grasp and understand Him fully. He is infinite, we are finite, and as a result, we simply CANNOT know all there is to know of Him.

    If that’s true, then doesn’t it make sense that each would understand Christ differently? But doesn’t He save us anyway, despite our imperfect understanding? Isn’t that the point?

    So, if Mormons teach a Christ that we believe can be justified Biblically, and if we acknowledge Him as completely divine and Lord above all, and if we teach and believe that it is ONLY through the mercy and merits and grace of our Lord and Savior that we can be saved–what is it about this teaching that negates our chance at salvation, from an Evangelical point of view?

    I’m not trying to be rhetorical or make a point here; I’m sincerely asking.

    Look forward to your response!

  3. Hi Katie! 🙂

    I’m happy you are open to dialogue. I can assure you I am not the kind that likes “Bible bashing or condemning diatribes.” It seems we both recognize there are serious differences and we agree they are important. I believe we can be respectful and kind as we each seek to “earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3).

    Your point of view is very refreshing. I really appreciate that you recognize that “Mormon doctrine is elusive and INCREDIBLY difficult to ‘pin down'” – that’s something that has been driving me crazy as I am trying to understand and dialog with people about Mormon beliefs. From the research I have done, it seems the recent prophets of the LDS church have also been elusive in terms of ever clarifying any confusing doctrine.

    You understood my concern exactly regarding the Mormon doctrine on the nature of God and you are right in thinking that this sounds shocking and blasphemous to me.

    You said “we are crafted of the same “stuff” as Deity–that our potential is to become “like Him” (whatever that means; I’ll be the first to admit to you I have NO IDEA)–or in other words, we are the same “species,” if you will, as God.”

    You wanted to know what I see as being the major implications of this teaching. Well, as I’m sure we are both aware, evangelicals believe Smith was a false prophet so we are greatly concerned about the doctrine he taught concerning the nature of God. Lucifer was kicked out of heaven for his prideful thoughts concerning his ability to become like God (Ezekiel 28:2-19). As far as how it will affect people’s eternal souls, only God will be the judge of that. I cannot know the hearts of the millions of Mormons out there that have millions of different views on this and God has not made me their judge. I can only look on and judge Smith’s teachings and the fruits of them.

    For example, you admitted you were not helped to find the Biblical truth about grace through Mormon teaching. You said, “It still disturbs me that I had to learn this from sources outside the Church. In fact, when I compared my newfound understanding with everything I’d learned about salvation from my Mormon upbringing, I almost left the Church entirely. The works-centric vocabulary…the constant injunctions to “be worthy”…and that incomprehensible scripture in 2 Nephi that still gives me heartburn: “After all we can do…”

    It surprises me that you didn’t leave the church after finding the true gospel outside the church. It concerns me that you might still be impacted by other false doctrines in the church, such as the nature of God of which we are now discussing.

    I would like to share what I find most blasphemous about the teachings of Joseph Smith. I will use God’s words in comparison with Joseph Smith’s in the King Follet discourse:

    “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man…he was once a man like us… God himself the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did”

    “But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes…thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself, but I will reprove thee…” (Psalm 50:21) Jesus said “God is a Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24)

    “In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it…. “and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves”

    “Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me” (Isaiah 43:10).

    “God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all.”

    “Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens… he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein” (Isaiah 42:5) “I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded” (Isaiah 45:12)

    “I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for certainty the character of God”

    “Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.” (Isaiah 40:28)

    “Now, I ask all who hear me, why the learned men who are preaching salvation say that God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing? The reason is, that they are unlearned in the things of God and have not the gift of the Holy Ghost. They account it blasphemy in any one to contradict their idea. If you tell them that God made the world out of something, they will call you a fool. But I am learned, and know more than all the world put together.”

    “Who is he that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? …Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof? …When I made the cloud…and thick darkness…hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place? …declare if thou knowest it all… canst thou send lightnings? Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? …Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct Him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it…He beholdeth all high things; he is a king over all the children of pride” (Job. 38-41).

    Sorry.. Didn’t know this would be so long…

    I don’t want to neglect any of your questions though.

    You said “So, if Mormons teach a Christ that we believe can be justified Biblically, and if we acknowledge Him as completely divine and Lord above all, and if we teach and believe that it is ONLY through the mercy and merits and grace of our Lord and Savior that we can be saved–what is it about this teaching that negates our chance at salvation, from an Evangelical point of view?”

    But I thought you had said that you had to find the grace of Christ outside the church because the church is not teaching that it is ONLY through the mercy and merits and grace of our Lord and Savior that we can be saved…

    I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the things I’ve shared.

    Grace and peace,


  4. Jessica,

    You’ve made some excellent points. Thank you. And I really appreciate your respect.

    You’re right, there are aspects of the King Follet Discourse (which I admit I’ve read only once or twice) that are difficult to understand. Before I feel as though I can adequately discuss those issues, I’d like to take some time and go back and re-read it. I hope that in so doing, I might be able to address it more articulately. So let me get back to you on that one.

    I do want to touch on this idea of why I didn’t leave the church after I considered it. As I mentioned in my previous blog post, I began to discover the truth about grace thanks to dialogues my husband was having with evangelical Christians. Despite the fact that many of these discussions later turned sour, I am grateful to them for helping me get on the right path.

    However, I would be remiss (and indeed I *was* remiss not to mention in my post) if I didn’t give credit to LDS writers and thinkers who helped me find the Savior once I had been introduced to the concept. Stephen Robinson and Robert Millet in particular, both BYU professors, have written extensively about grace, and I found their insights very useful. As was, to be completely candid with you, an LDS therapist I was seeing at the time who helped me overcome my perfectionism by encouraging me to seek Christ. I won’t bore you with the details, but let’s just say that as a child I heard a message OUTSIDE of church that said I couldn’t be loved unless I was “accomplishing” things. And so I tended to give more credence to things I heard IN church that reinforced such a worldview.

    Also, I found a lot of comfort in the Book of Mormon once I had the eyes to see and the ears to hear. The Book of Mormon is, at its core, a Christ-centered volume. I really believe in the message of that book and I love it–that one verse in 2 Nephi notwithstanding. (For the record, I have come to believe that scripture is misinterpreted in Mormondom. But that’s a topic for a whole ‘nother post.)

    In any event, once I began to accept the Savior into my life, I reached a crossroads. I realized I needed to study the doctrine of the church to determine whether or not Mormonism teaches salvation by grace or something else. It wouldn’t be fair just to leave without giving it an honest evaluation. So I had to ask myself whether my confusion was because the church didn’t teach the doctrine of grace, or whether my own experiences and interpretations had distorted my perspective. And I became satisfied through my study of the scriptures that Mormons do indeed teach salvation by grace.

    Since “waking up,” I found the truth was there all along. In talking to friends and my husband about my experiences, many of them have not been able to relate to my perfectionism and previous works-centric understanding. They say it had always been clear to them that salvation comes through the grace of Christ. I have discovered this past year that there are many, many Mormons who understand this truth.

    However, while there is a strong group of Mormons who believe in grace, I think there are still some who do not fully understand what it means-—as this blog attests. Mormonism is a part of who I am. It’s my “tribe.” I love my Mormon brothers and sisters and I want to be there to help those who are struggling with this concept, I want to be a shoulder to lean on, a voice of hope to those who are seeking the Savior. Because I feel a unique empathy towards Mormons (particularly Mormon women) who might be caught in a trap of perfectionism and feelings of unworthiness, as I was, I feel drawn to stay. I feel like I can do more good within Mormonism than without.

    Of course, those aren’t my ONLY reasons for choosing to be a Mormon. I really do believe it—-for all my doubts and questions, I believe I am right where I am supposed to be, where God wants me to be, and I won’t argue with Him. For me, this is a deep, deep topic that gets to the heart and soul of everything I am. I’m kind of surprised I’ve laid as much of it out here in this blog as I have, but I guess I just hope that someone out there reading can relate to what I’ve experienced and find hope themselves.

    Anyway. This is already too long. 🙂 I know you have a unique interest in understanding the Mormon perspective. I would never presume to speak for anyone else, but I hope I’ve been able to help you understand a little where *this* Mormon, anyway, is coming from.

    God bless,


  5. Hi Katie,

    Thanks for sharing your insider perspective. I really appreciate you dialogging with me and I think I understand a little better where you are coming from in terms of not leaving the LDS church. I would never want to make light of your upbringing or the people you dearly love. However, with all kindness and respect, please allow me to bring up a sincere concern I have.

    IF, as evangelical Christians believe, JS was a false prophet and taught a false Christ how would you know whether or not you were deceived by this religion into believing in a false Christ? Jesus said “many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many” (Matthew 24:11). In your view, what would be the objective evidence to determine whether or not JS was a false prophet? I know Mormons believe that if they pray and receive a burning in the bosom then the Book of Mormon is true. However, this formula is prescribed in the Book of Mormon, not the Bible, so IF Joseph Smith was a false prophet, how do we know this is the correct formula for determining truth?
    I can understand not wanting to leave the people that you love, but didn’t Jesus say “He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:37) and “every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life” (Matthew 19:29)

    So if the Jesus in Mormonism is a different Jesus (as proclaimed by LDS prophets themselves), it would seem imperative to me that a person come away from the false Jesus to the true Jesus. I’m not sure if a person could do that while still clinging to the belief that JS was a true prophet, the LDS church is the only true church, and the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth…

    A further concern of mine is that I’m not sure whether a person can truly understand the Biblical concept of grace within the Mormon system and with the concept of the Mormon Jesus. Let me try to explain my view…

    You said, “In talking to friends and my husband about my experiences, many of them have not been able to relate to my perfectionism and previous works-centric understanding. They say it had always been clear to them that salvation comes through the grace of Christ. I have discovered this past year that there are many, many Mormons who understand this truth.”

    I wonder if any of your friends read apostle Spencer Kimball’s book The Miracle of Forgiveness

    He said:
    “One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.” (pages 206-207)

    He went on to explain the Mormon concept of perfection (which does not appear to be your personal mis-understanding)… It appears Kimball very clearly taught what you now believe to be false teaching and a “mis-interpretation of scripture.”

    Kimball said, “Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us… Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal.” (page 208-209)

    I don’t think Kimball’s book is relegated to the archives of Mormon history either. Just last month in the Mormon Times, Orson Scott Card said this book changed his life when he read it on his mission. He said, “it was so warm and open and real that it touched my heart and gave me great hope, as I realized that this was a part of the gospel I was in Brazil to teach.” (

    I am actually in agreement with Kimball that God requires perfection. Jesus said, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)

    Where I disagree with Kimball is on the “formula” for reaching this perfection and on the definition of the only Person who can give us His perfection.

    It’s an odd thing that I see happening right now as I study Mormonism. This religion started out with a founder who declared that all other religions were wrong and he had the corner on truth. Now, many Mormons, such as yourself are declaring that the gospel of evangelical Christians is true, but Mormonism is also true. I don’t think you can have both. Either it’s true or it isn’t. Either it started with a false prophet or a true prophet. Jesus was either “a god” (Doctrines of Salvation 1:32-33) or He IS God (John 1:1). God is either an “exalted man” or He isn’t. We were either spirit children in a pre-existence and Jesus is literally our elder brother who was once Satan’s equal (Abraham 3:27) or there is no such things as a pre-existence (it’s not in the Bible or the Book of Mormon) and humans and Satan were created by Jesus Christ (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16) who is co-eternal and co-equal with God the Father and the Holy Ghost who are the 3 persons who make up the one and only Godhead.

    Since we are discussing the nature of God, this is something I would like to delve into further with you to see how you understand or explain the various passages in Scripture that refer to only 1 God and yet 3 persons who are all God. For more on my view of the Trinity please see this explanation from Living Hope Ministries:

    I would like to hear your perspective on these verses that cause evangelical Christians to come to the conclusion that God is a Trinity.

  6. Jessica,

    I think we’re branching off a little into several different discussions, so to help me gather my thoughts, I’m going to write a couple of separate posts that address the following issues:

    1)—The nature of Truth
    2)—The nature of God
    3)—The elusive nature of LDS doctrine

    They’re all interconnected, of course, but this is going to help me focus and hopefully focus the discussion.

    Look for them this week.

    Happy Sabbath,
    Katie 🙂

  7. Katherine! howdy 🙂

    Okay, so I’ve been reading a lot of the discourse on your blog here, and I must say I find it all very interesting. I’m always glad to see “people” questioning things and finding answers that satisfy “their” hunger for truth. I’m especially happy to see open honest intellectual conversation in regards to these matters. While I personally find the accepted “truth” I grew up with and was raised on very questionable and even partially fairytale-esc, it’s nice to see a fresh perspective on these (vague word I know) subjects (religion, God, Jesus, faith etc..)

    I’m not really here to take part in discussion, but rather to just throw something your way. I recently saw an incredibly interesting documentary called Zeitgeist, and while it covers a wide range of topics (religion, politics, war-fare etc..) I found this portion about religion and thought that you and Lanny should maybe watch it.

    I have to give a disclaimer though. It’s quite blunt.. and even a little ridiculous on how some of it is presented. It’s a little slow to start but once it does I think you’ll find it interesting too.

    Let me know what you think.


    here is the link:

  8. p.s. feel free to skip the first like 8 minutes or so.. After that is when the real part of the documentary begins…

  9. Todd,

    Thanks for the tip. We’ll definitely cheggitout.

    Love your guts,

  10. Hi Katie! 🙂

    I look forward to reading your upcoming blogs as you find time to put your thoughts on paper. I saw the link on here from Todd about the documentary and watched the first video. It appeared to be setting forth the “Jesus Myth.” I was recently blogging with an ex-Mormon who is now an atheist and he brought up this question of whether Jesus ever existed. After he lost faith in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, he had started questioning the existence of Jesus Himself. I did some research to provide some responses to his questions and found an article that he said had the best arguments for the existence of Jesus. I thought I’d post it here on your blog in response to the documentary that questions this for all the ‘truth-seekers’ out here in cyberspace.

    I started spending some time on my blog providing some evidences for Jesus and historical Christian faith in response to the many ex-Mormon atheists out there. It really grieves me that people would be so disillusioned after discovering they were not given the whole truth, but I realize this is not isolated to the LDS church and ex-Mormons aren’t the only ones that are losing faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible. Still, it deeply saddens me.

    Take care,


  11. Quick update. Just got this note from Todd about that documentary on my Facebook wall. I guess my husband watched it (I haven’t gotten around to it) and told Todd what was what.

    “Katherine Langston, Landon set me straight about that documentary.. more like, CRAPumentary. I apologize for sending such lameo uninformed bullhonky”

    So apparently there’s a consensus here–it’s not worth much.

    But, I hear, it’s pretty damn sensational. So that’s always exciting. Just know you’re getting a bunch of un-researched “quarter truths.” 🙂

  12. I just need to know…did you get the dollar from the pimply kid?

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